Short History of Modern Germany

Hunble schrieb:

My God, do you actually think that Americans are monsters and love to kill people?

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no ... of course not!!!
I think that you are humans like germans are. I did not suppose that you have green hair und 3 eyes
so thats the reason why it is so important to talk
You have your reasons for your point of view as I have reasons ... and we have totaly different experience and information background.

I am more than willing to discuss these political views with you and others.

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Thats great. There are some people here, who are more than willing to discuss as well.

It is just a matter of time until I will be banned from this website. That is expected.

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There is no reason for banning.
Its your right to have your opinion ... everybody is free to express his point of view ...
the only thing to consider (and that means the german writers here as well!) is not do affront someone personal.

There is a speach with lots of truth in it.
Alway discuss with people with unlike position than you have, to have a chance to learn.

(oh my godness ...i hope my english ist understandable)

Until that time, as an American, I will do my absolute best to express the reality of this political world.

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Do you think you have more information then we in germany .... to evaluate the reality?
What ist the political reality ?

thats the interesting difference ....ih think the american information background is not like ours. That must not mean that yours is the only universal truth ... same as ours need not be the ultimate truth.

You have half truth and we have half truth ... if we put together ... we`ll have a better view.

Regards
lilly

i personally think war against iraq could most probably be ok in some way. but there is just no reason to do it now.
in my opinion bush should have stoped moving troops to the golf when saddam decided to let the inspectors in.
that way they would get a real reason.
maybe it would have lasted two years the way it is now . but therefore there would be more legitimation.
it doesn t look like bush is going to wait for a real reason.
and it is also questionable if resolution 1441 ´could be taken as a reason for war.
if the inspectors can stop iraq from developing more weapons, i rthink they are doing a good job, and it could stay that way for years.
and if he gets them out it might be time again for the military.

by the way iraq is not a very islamic country . it is pretty much sekularisiert(not islamic law)its dictatorship law.( and there are christians too. actually the oldest originated christian community on earth.)
of course i think those people should have more rights and stuff like free decisionmaking but then again you would have to fight half of the world.
powel said something right in the last week;doing sth like the marshall plan to countrys that are comitted to democracy transparency of governm and stuff.... (and capitalism which i thought he could have left out)

quote="Angel of Seven But one is proven, a war against Iraq means war against the whole Arab world. That is the bad mistake of the USA in their

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this might be part true but you should think about if it is worth for the whole mankind to die from some virus or shit. you cant take away chemical warfare from nobody. it is easy to replicate and hide for a few people. that might as well be in some cellar in saudi arabia or mexio or in a us suburb.
i personnally think that the 911 attacks were planed to transplant the israeli palestinan conflict on the world level.and bush might just be the best helper of al quaida inteligence.
(and as long as the us is so religious itself i dont think they can really can blame someone else for their religion. you gotta be atheist and humanist for that ok my opinon as atheist))
but first of all bush should stop his 1 dimensional rethorics (which might be good to understand for a wide range of americans but not for the rest of the world)and he should stop his religious stuff.for me its fucking weird to hear sth with god at the end of each speech thats not sth a leader of a democracy should be allowed to do.

Hunble schrieb:

Think about it. Is that actually the wrong thing to do? Have not the people living in the middle east declared war against everyone who does not follow the Islamic religion?

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that's just not true. There may be a hand of religious or political leaders who did. But don't speak of "the people" - most of them just want to live in peace and safety, just like you and every one of us.

Americans are not Gods, we simply defend our national interests. For over 30 years, the Muslims in the Middle East have humiliated the United States.

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The question is, why do they do this? What happened in the islamic world? Have you ever asked you that question? Maybe if the americans find out the answer, they could do something about that. Our doctors have a word for it: Cure the cause, not the symptoms.

Personally, I do not give a darn if Germany likes it or not.

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That's your right as an adult, independent person. And it's the right of other persons, not to agree with war.

President Bush does not play games. When he said these words, he was deadly serious:

"You are with us, or with the terrorists."

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ok, what's next? That's not only demagogy, it's simple extortion. "With us" means, we have to accept everything your president would tell us to do? Hell no, i am against terrorism, i am against dictators like saddam. And just the fact, that i prefer another proceeding makes me a supporter of the terrorists? That are thoughts that are just too crude for a man with your experience. Personally, even being against war again Irak - at this time and in this situation - i tried to understand and respect the way the Americans have to see it. So would you please stop defaming me to support terrorism? Thank you.

With some Germans, they have unfortunately decided to support the terrorists.

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That's exactly what i mean!

sillyLilly schrieb:

I think that you are humans like germans are.

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da ging mir echt ein kleines schmunzeln ab.

"Ich denke mal, ihr Amerikaner seid genau so Menschen, wie wir Deutsche."

(ich weiß, du hast es nicht so gemeint, wie ich es herausgelesen habe).

reticulum
*ggg*
ich brech mir hier ein ab mit meinem eingerosteten schulenglisch ... *lach* manche sachen lesen sich bestimmt ziemlich bescheuert

ich bekomms auch nicht mehr so gebacken, wie zu der zeit, als ich noch international unterwegs war.

mittlerweile muss ich auch schon übersetzer zu hilfe nehmen, damit ich mich halbwegs verständlich mit hunble unterhalten kann.

sillyLilly schrieb:

reticulum
*ggg*
ich brech mir hier ein ab mit meinem eingerosteten schulenglisch ... *lach* manche sachen lesen sich bestimmt ziemlich bescheuert

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Nein, mit verständnisvollen Augen betrachtet ist das eher symphatisch süß. Möglicherweise ist das auch der Grund, warum kaum einer den Fake des Thread-Posters hier bemerkt.

Auf die Gefahr hin, dass Du auf der Basis meiner Stellungnahme vorher meine nachfolgenden Äußerungen ablehnst: Das was Hunble hier inhaltlich postet, ist absolut nicht repräsentativ für US-Bürger, selbst wenn er einer wäre (oder ist). Zwar gab es speziell nach den 911-Ereignissen hier und dort zunächst schockgesteuerte Spontangefühle bis hin zur Bereitschaft, unmittelbar in die Armee einzutreten, obwohl eigentlich pazifistischer Grundeinstellung. Das hat sich aber im Laufe der Zeit egalisiert. Momentan stehen viele US-Bürger der Bush-Administration samt deren kuriosen Druck auf die deutsche Regierung sehr skeptisch gegenüber und haben in Wahrheit im Alltag noch immer mit den wirtschaftlichen Ergebnissen nach der 911-Lethargie zu kämpfen. Die paar Falken, die jetzt darauf pochen, dass die Deutschen doch wg. der Geschichte und dem Einsatz der Armee hier nach ´45 dankbar zu sein haben und jetzt gefälligst "mitmachen" müssten, machen es wirklich nicht.

Einen Unterschied muss man allerdings regional machen, d.h. die New Yorker haben aufgrund ihrer direkten aktuellen Erlebnisse eine andere Haltung als Einwohner von L.A., die von allem mal wieder nichts mitkriegen.

Die Haltung den Deutschen gegenüber hat mit der jüngeren Geschichte aber auch gar nichts zu tun, die Wenigsten dort wissen einen genauen Unterschied zwischen Deutschland, der Schweiz oder den Niederlanden zu definieren. Schon sprachphonetisch können die Meisten nichts unterscheiden. Das hat mit dem Eigenbild über den Kontinent und dessen Möglichkeiten samt Größe sowie mit dem Bildungsstandard dort zu tun, den ich aber keinesfalls als diskreditiert verstanden haben will. Unsere Schulen sind es ja auch nicht gerade ;-) Welche Rolle die USA im WWII gespielt haben, ist größtenteils total unbekannt, und wenn, dann auf Disney-Filmen basierend, das Interesse an Deutschland und Europa bezieht sich bei vielen eher auf die Basis ihrer eigenen Familien, denn die stammen da oft von hier.

Als Fazit bleibt, dass hier wie dort die Welt aus Individuen besteht, mit denen ich mich einzeln auseinandersetzen muss. Jede Generalisierung schafft nur unnötige Projektionsflächen, die sich bestens als Feind- oder Freundbild missbrauchen lassen. Schreibt ein "Hunble" (ha ha) also, dass wir (wer ist eigentlich wir?) bei Nichtbefolgen der US-Außenpolitik-Diktion auch Terroristen seien, dann ist er (oder sie?) autoritär, stellt Bedingungen, kennt keine Differenzierung. Exakt das ist es, was die Welt wirklich nicht braucht.

Elbee
Und ?? Ich bin Deutsche und nicht unbedingt repräsentativ, für den oder die Deutsche Meinung ...genauso wenig wie du oder irgendjemand anders

Hast du gedacht ich würde annehmen das alle Amerikaner einer Meinung sind?
*g*

Namste
Lilly

sillyLilly schrieb:

Elbee
Und ?? Ich bin Deutsche und nicht unbedingt repräsentativ, für den oder die Deutsche Meinung ...genauso wenig wie du oder irgendjemand anders

Hast du gedacht ich würde annehmen das alle Amerikaner einer Meinung sind?
*g*

Namste
Lilly

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Nö, über Deine Annahmen hinsichtlich der Amerikaner weiß ich ja nichts. Aber es freut mich, dass Du über Amerikaner differenziert denkst :-)

Hunble schrieb:

Angel of Seven schrieb:

But one is proven, a war against Iraq means war against the whole Arab world. That is the bad mistake of the USA in their thinking

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Think about it. Is that actually the wrong thing to do? Have not the people living in the middle east declared war against everyone who does not follow the Islamic religion?

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This Estimate comes not from me but from many Arabs in interviews I experienced! "war against everyone who does not follow the Islamic religion?" This said not the Arab people, but some religious fanatic who did not understand the basic statement of its religion (Peace and Love!),
Exactly as your American president do, God bless America, God do this, God think that, there is no God who bless an America which goes a way of war! It does not exist a holy war of Islam, what exist is hate and misunderstanding between western and Islamic world.

Americans are not Gods, we simply defend our national interests. For over 30 years, the Muslims in the Middle East have humiliated the United States.

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What are your national interests? Destruction of inhumaner weapons? or the second largest oil fields on earth?or both

After 9-11, things changed.

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??????

Personally, I do not give a darn if Germany likes it or not. President Bush does not play games. When he said these words, he was deadly serious:

"You are with us, or with the terrorists."

With some Germans, they have unfortunately decided to support the terrorists.

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"he was deadly serious", "You are with us, or with the terrorists."

Is this a Statement of the President of the United States of America or a Statement from Clint Eastwood in one of his movies?
where are the Relations about the fight against the terrorism and the Iraq, whose dictator is hated under Islamic fanatic people?
There are no Germans who decided to support terrorists, but there are many Germans who hate War, because the II.War still in them after-lives in their mind and I hope the American civilian population will not experience such a thing .

I do not know how to express this a simpler language. If you have personally decided to support the terrorists, then you must be held responsible for your actions.

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Thanks for your welfare service, but I`ll never personally decided to support the terrorists, but here a Message for You and Your President:
"who seizes to the sword, by the sword he will die!" (Jesus Christ)


lightful Greetings

Angel of Seven

Elbee
man sollte von seinem Gegenüber nicht mehr erwarten als von sich selber ...
ihm aber auch nicht weniger zutrauen als sich selber

sillyLilly schrieb:

Elbee
man sollte von seinem Gegenüber nicht mehr erwarten als von sich selber ...
ihm aber auch nicht weniger zutrauen als sich selber

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Auch wenn das, mit Verlaub, ein Spruch der Qualität "Apotheken-Kalender 1972" ist: Das sagst Du gerade dem Richtigen ;-)

I personally think that this war will be the beginning of the end of the american regnancy. No country will rule the world for ever and you and you president are taking every action to be the most disguised and hated country in the world. Do you think it is worth it, hunble? Do you think your SUV`s and you american way of life is worth killing so many people? Finally all this hatred will come down on the american people, like it did once upon a time in Germany. It will not be nice, but may be it will help the american people understand, that this is not their planet only and that there are much more people on this world and much more sights and decisions than black and white (like your president likes to see the world). 911 was only a beginning. Hold this course and i am sure that terror will become something common in the US, like it is in Israel.
All that ignorance and that egomania are steering you and your country on the road to ruin.
It is still not to late to change directions but unfortunately I think this war is a previously arranged thing, so may god help us all. You relegate us all to the fringe of hell...